[Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

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[Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Nate Hill
Howsabout this comment at the bottom of the article:

"I woke up this morning because my cell phone alarm went off. The cell phone was charged because it was powered by a regulated power grid. I drove to work safely on publicly regulated roads and crossed the bridge because of publicly mandated repairs. I didn't get into an accident because of publicly mandated traffic and car safety rules. I had a drink of water that didn't infect me with some sort of deadly bacteria because of a publicly regulated water supply.

But I'll be damned if I get more than 7.5mbps out of my privately controlled DSL line, with no other option.

Private internet ain't working. Government does a lot of necessary things pretty well. No reason not to let em try doing the ISP thing."

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/congresswoman-defends-states-rights-to-protect-isps-from-muni-competition/

--
William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Rod-Lists
In reply to this post by William D. Roush
It's Marsha Blackburn what else is there to say?

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

James Nylen
In reply to this post by Nate Hill
This sounds familiar... http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock, powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly, regulated by the US department of energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.

After that, I turned the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food which has been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved car and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the departmental of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, I drive back to my house which has not been burned down thanks to to the state and local building codes and the fire marshal's inspection, and it has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log onto the internet, which was developed by the US department of defense, and post on the free public access website 4chan about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

Seriously. Just STFU.


On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 9:07 PM, Nate Hill <[hidden email]> wrote:
Howsabout this comment at the bottom of the article:

"I woke up this morning because my cell phone alarm went off. The cell phone was charged because it was powered by a regulated power grid. I drove to work safely on publicly regulated roads and crossed the bridge because of publicly mandated repairs. I didn't get into an accident because of publicly mandated traffic and car safety rules. I had a drink of water that didn't infect me with some sort of deadly bacteria because of a publicly regulated water supply.

But I'll be damned if I get more than 7.5mbps out of my privately controlled DSL line, with no other option.

Private internet ain't working. Government does a lot of necessary things pretty well. No reason not to let em try doing the ISP thing."

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/congresswoman-defends-states-rights-to-protect-isps-from-muni-competition/

--
William Roush
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:423-463-0592" value="+14234630592" target="_blank">423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Dave Brockman
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
> This sounds familiar...
> http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html

Comment #9 seems a valid response.

Regards,

dtb


- --
"Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
Only if the point sails clear over your head: A vast amount of Americans
don't constantly argue that Sony is unable to produce any products that
work.


On 7/17/2014 3:45 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
>> This sounds familiar...
>> http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html
> Comment #9 seems a valid response.
>
> Regards,
>
> dtb
>
>
> - --
> "Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
> unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
> fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
> equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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> _______________________________________________
> Chugalug mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://chugalug.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/chugalug

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Chad Smith
FALSE.

They are called Xbox Fanboys.

- Chad W. Smith


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:57 PM, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only if the point sails clear over your head: A vast amount of Americans don't constantly argue that Sony is unable to produce any products that work.



On 7/17/2014 3:45 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
This sounds familiar...
http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html
Comment #9 seems a valid response.

Regards,

dtb


- -- "Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
Listen, Sony is amazing.

Need I link the last E3?

(We don't talk about E3s prior to that)
William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


On 7/17/2014 3:59 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
FALSE.

They are called Xbox Fanboys.

- Chad W. Smith


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:57 PM, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only if the point sails clear over your head: A vast amount of Americans don't constantly argue that Sony is unable to produce any products that work.



On 7/17/2014 3:45 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
This sounds familiar...
http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html
Comment #9 seems a valid response.

Regards,

dtb


- -- "Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Chad Smith
I am not saying Sony can't make products that work--- I am saying there is a large number of Americans who go online to say that Sony cannot make products that work.

Personally, I prefer my PS3 to my 360 - and would get a PS4 before I got a Xbox One... if the money tree ever bears fruit in my backyard.

The point is - there certainly are people who think that capitalism is just as stupid as other people think socialism is.  Also, it was an easy joke... or so I thought.

As far as the main subject of the government's ability to get stuff done... there are activities in which our government excels -- and there are others in which they fall woefully short.  It seems, IMHO, that the stuff they are good at they have been doing for a very long time.  The stuff they are not so good at are recent additions to their workload.  Adding more stuff for them to have to deal with doesn't seem like a wise decision.

- Chad W. Smith


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:04 PM, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
Listen, Sony is amazing.

Need I link the last E3?

(We don't talk about E3s prior to that)

William Roush
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:423-463-0592" value="+14234630592" target="_blank">423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


On 7/17/2014 3:59 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
FALSE.

They are called Xbox Fanboys.

- Chad W. Smith


On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:57 PM, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only if the point sails clear over your head: A vast amount of Americans don't constantly argue that Sony is unable to produce any products that work.



On 7/17/2014 3:45 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
This sounds familiar...
http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html
Comment #9 seems a valid response.

Regards,

dtb


- -- "Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Stephen Kraus
In reply to this post by Dave Brockman

Um, the FCC's regulatory powers have largely been stripped. Not a valid comparison, and right now we actually NEED a better and unbiased FCC.

On Jul 17, 2014 3:47 PM, "Dave Brockman" <[hidden email]> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 7/17/2014 10:55 AM, James Nylen wrote:
> This sounds familiar...
> http://www.copypasta.info/2010/03/socialism.html

Comment #9 seems a valid response.

Regards,

dtb


- --
"Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

John Aldrich
Quoting Stephen Kraus <[hidden email]>:

> Um, the FCC's regulatory powers have largely been stripped. Not a valid
> comparison, and right now we actually NEED a better and unbiased FCC.
> On Jul 17, 2014 3:47 PM, "Dave Brockman" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
I'm with you, Stephen. It seems the Supreme Court would prefer to have  
a wide-open internet with no regulation so that their cronies at TW  
and Comcast and AT&T can make money selling end users access to  
websites and websites access to end users. That way they make TWICE  
the money they used to when they were only selling website/email/etc  
access to end users.  Poor AT&T, Comcast, and Time Warner (and let  us  
not forget Verizon) don't make any money selling internet access. :(  
</sarcasm>
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
In reply to this post by Chad Smith
On 7/17/2014 4:11 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
there certainly are people who think that capitalism is just as stupid as other people think socialism is.

While I agree that these groups do exist, I would think to say that the former is anywhere near as large as the later in our country is a bit laughable.

      On 7/17/2014 4:11 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
Adding more stuff for them to have to deal with doesn't seem like a wise decision.

Do you think EPB's smart grid/fiber to the home was not a wise decision? I do agree that the government can't tackle a lot of things (and a lot of factors including to what extent and what level of government and the scale of the proposed solution), but I think that judgement should be made on a case-by-case basis and not a blanket "well I feel it can't work".

William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/



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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
In reply to this post by John Aldrich
EPB's financial statements show they can lay down fiber to the home,
provide gigabit for $70/mo, not have close to a majority share in the
market, and still pay down the debits (plus interest) with little
effort, while providing better customer service and not playing this
double dipping con game, it's INFURIATING that people continue to
support this charade they put on.

On one hand: I want to not care and let people reap what they sow. On
the other hand, even on EPB, we're going to suffer from the bigger
players squeezing the internet for every penny it can drop, EPB and
Google Fiber can't keep Netflix (and similar services) alive alone,
we'll deal with the fallout too.

William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


On 7/17/2014 4:57 PM, John Aldrich wrote:
> Poor AT&T, Comcast, and Time Warner (and let  us not forget Verizon)
> don't make any money selling internet access.

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Chad Smith
In reply to this post by William D. Roush
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 4:01 PM, William Roush <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 7/17/2014 4:11 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
there certainly are people who think that capitalism is just as stupid as other people think socialism is.

While I agree that these groups do exist, I would think to say that the former is anywhere near as large as the later in our country is a bit laughable.

Not really.  California and New York have large numbers of people ... and so do many major cities outside of the Deep South and SouthWest.

(Disclosure - I moved to Saint Louis, MO a little over 7 years ago.  Things are different up here.)

Do you think EPB's smart grid/fiber to the home was not a wise decision?

Can't say - again, I don't live in the Chattanooga area anymore.  But it does sound like it has been a good idea.  

The thing is, though, the EPB is barely "The Government" - and certainly isn't the Federal Government™.  Things like the US Postal Service that are run more like a company than an agency tend to do a lot better than pure government type stuff.
 
I do agree that the government can't tackle a lot of things (and a lot of factors including to what extent and what level of government and the scale of the proposed solution), but I think that judgement should be made on a case-by-case basis and not a blanket "well I feel it can't work".

True - but I think the default should be "Let's not have the government do this." rather than "The Government should do this!".

There should be a clear reason why it is important for this New Thing™ to be the government's responsibility rather than "meh - let the Feds handle it."

-Chad 

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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Dan Lyke
In reply to this post by William D. Roush
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 2:09 PM, William Roush
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> EPB's financial statements show they can lay down fiber to the home, provide
> gigabit for $70/mo, not have close to a majority share in the market, and
> still pay down the debits (plus interest) with little effort, while
> providing better customer service and not playing this double dipping con
> game, it's INFURIATING that people continue to support this charade they put
> on.

Yes. And "free market" arguments might have credibility if AT&T and
Comcast's entire success hadn't been predicated on quashing any free
market.

And for good measure: Level 3 points out that they'd love to pay the
few tens of thousands of dollars it'd cost for Verizon to upgrade
their peering capacity to handle NetFlix. And it might even just be a
few cables.

http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/verizons-accidental-mea-culpa/?sf28651657=1

Dan
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Dave Brockman
In reply to this post by William D. Roush
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On 7/17/2014 5:09 PM, William Roush wrote:
> EPB's financial statements show they can lay down fiber to the
> home, provide gigabit for $70/mo, not have close to a majority
> share in the market, and still pay down the debits (plus interest)
> with little effort, while providing better customer service and not
> playing this double dipping con game, it's INFURIATING that people
> continue to support this charade they put on.

Minor correction, they do not provide Gigabit for $70/month.  And I
would have to qualify the market.  I would suspect they are at
majority share of commercial connections in their service area, if
not, very close to?  I can count the Business CC circuits from
clients, friends, and acquaintances that I am aware of, and they are
all on the same hand. Data circuits CC requires for PRI bundles are
not included, and anything not directly required to light the PRI is
unplugged.

> On one hand: I want to not care and let people reap what they sow.
> On the other hand, even on EPB, we're going to suffer from the
> bigger players squeezing the internet for every penny it can drop,
> EPB and Google Fiber can't keep Netflix (and similar services)
> alive alone, we'll deal with the fallout too.

For another WTF moment, you did see Blackburn's proposal passed the house?

http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/07/congresswoman-defends-states-rights-to-protect-isps-from-muni-competition/

Regards,

dtb

- --
"Some things in life can never be fully appreciated nor understood
unless experienced firsthand. Some things in networking can never be
fully understood by someone who neither builds commercial networking
equipment nor runs an operational network." RFC 1925
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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
On 7/17/2014 5:51 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
> Minor correction, they do not provide Gigabit for $70/month

https://epbfi.com/gigsupport/

Huh? Am I missing something?

On 7/17/2014 5:51 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
> I would suspect they are at
> majority share of commercial connections in their service area, if
> not, very close to?

EPB released a map recently and I was surprised how low market
penetration is in some areas. While I don't expect businesses on things
like Comcast, I do expect them to be with ISPs like Windstream.

Who are the insane people not on EPB? I have no clue.

http://projects.timesfreepress.com/2014/05/epb/gig_mbps/gig_mbps.html?utm_content=buffer9e81a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

And very few people pay for gig (though people like me know their router
doesn't do more than 100mb, so I'll just pocket that $15/mo).


On 7/17/2014 5:51 PM, Dave Brockman wrote:
> For another WTF moment, you did see Blackburn's proposal passed the house?


To be honest: not surprised.

William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
In reply to this post by Chad Smith
On 7/17/2014 5:14 PM, Chad Smith wrote:
> Not really.  California and New York have large numbers of people ...
> and so do many major cities outside of the Deep South and SouthWest.

Lived in California most of my life as much as the movies and
stereotypes portray, it's not a socialist paradise... :\ Remember: they
couldn't get prop 8 to pass.

William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/


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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

William D. Roush
In reply to this post by Dan Lyke
On 7/17/2014 5:17 PM, Dan Lyke wrote:
Yes. And "free market" arguments might have credibility if AT&T and
Comcast's entire success hadn't been predicated on quashing any free
market.

On top of that: there are start up ISPs out there, it's not like they don't exist. You got two kinds: kinds that rent local loops from AT&T and their like, which are going to have all the same pricing and infrastructure problems as the big players (and the only reason these exist is because of the government forcing them to rent their local loops), and the ones that can scrounge the hundreds of millions required to lay new infrastructure around cities and acquire easements (which honestly on the easement discussion: what is the alternative?), and honestly it's up to large companies like Google to pull off projects like that in the industry.

The problem isn't that the market isn't free enough, it's that it isn't like your local mom and pop can start up and ISP no matter if it's the freest it could possibly be, the start up costs are insane.

Arguably you could say in a free market ISPs wouldn't be forced to rent their local loops to anyone but other ISPs that want to play by their game.


I do love Level 3 calling out Verizon though.

William Roush
[hidden email]
423-463-0592

http://www.roushtech.net/blog/




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Re: [Chugalug] Didn't want EPB anyway

Dan Lyke
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 3:25 PM, William Roush
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On top of that: there are start up ISPs out there, it's not like they don't
> exist.

And in fact I currently work for one. That's laying its own fiber, and
that also rents loops from AT&T.

And the tax structures and telecom regulations and the issues of
trying to work with a recalcitrant AT&T are a freakin' nightmare.

Dan
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